Aug
3rd Sailing
Posted by
Sails is a section of troutswirl that is devoted to presenting questions for discussion and debate on the nature and possibilities of haiku. Sails will be overseen by Peter Yovu. For an introduction to this section, see Sails.
• 1st Sailing
• 2nd Sailing
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
3rd Sailing
presented by Peter Yovu
Haiku? Senryu? Something else?
You have probably noticed, under Viral 4.3 and Periplum #3, an ongoing discussion about a poem by Penny Harter, much of it centered around whether it is a haiku, a senryu, or something else. In this Sailing, I would like to continue and broaden the discussion somewhat. The central question is this: do these considerations help or hinder the understanding and/or enjoyment of a poem? In what ways?
As evidenced in the Viral and Periplum discussions, some people feel that the distinction is important. Others do not. But chances are, those who do not have studied the distinctions, and probably have even, for a while anyway, kept to them in their writing, or as guidelines for reading. Here then are two related question: how important is it for newer students to learn the distinctions and to practice them? How important was this for you?
This is an open forum of course, but I believe the most helpful approach here may be a personal one. If your imagination is best served by staying within certain bounds, it would be good to hear how that works for you. And similarly, if it is best served by testing the bounds, how does that work?
I feel it would be quite enlivening to see a poem or two which, like the Harter poem, may yield to us dimensions otherwise missed without this kind of examination. So please feel free to introduce (or re-introduce) to us such work. At some point, I may do that myself with a famous poem by Chiyo-ni. I hope looking at it in this light will be fun and perhaps instructive. But maybe I won’t need to.
≈
- Bookmark :
- Digg
- del.icio.us
- Stumbleupon
- Redit it
I have already stated my view about the traditional Japanese side of the problem, where haiku, senryu and zappai are different types of short poems according to their formal criteria.
Here again, link to it.
http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/12/senryu-and-haiku.html
I think it is also important for short poems in other languages to try and find some way of distinguishing between these categories.
I am looking forward to the discussion !
Gabi
I find that these distinctions help my enjoyment and understanding of haiku and senryu broadly (but not on an individual basis): as I prefer haiku on the whole I can consult a collection of haiku in the knowledge that there won’t be much in the way of senryu contained there also. Likewise a preferrer of senryu would benefit the same.
I am perfectly satisfied with the idea that a poem cannot be categorised as predominantly one or the other in some cases, and am likely to enjoy such a poem as much as any other haiku. Provided that it has that quintessential “haikuness” to it (of course, that is a loaded term) I am content to find it amongst poems termed haiku.
I think it’s important for newer students to have a grasp of the possible distinctions in order that they are able to say to which tradition their poem responds. For me, this is the only real reason for categorisation: providing an aid to communication. If I know what I am writing is chiefly haiku, then I can present it to others who may wish to receive haiku-like communication as apposed to senryu-like communication. Similarly, in seeking out poetry which I prefer I am able to more easily get to what I am looking for if a poem is called a haiku rather than a senryu.
On both grounds it all boils down to communication for me, and communication is important.
Christopher, I think you are giving this a good perspective. I understand that you need rules in order to educate just what “quintessential ‘haikuness’” is, in order as Gabi says for anyone to understand what a haiku is or a senryu or a zappai…and once you have been able to communicate that “haikuness” in a poem so that other poets can feel and understand what that “haikuness” is in their own terms, that it is more important to follow what the poem is telling you what to do in order to make that connection. It must communicate. I’m not against rules at all…in fact the more I learn about them the better I appreciate the depth of their nature… But it is not just essential to understand that rules can be brokn, but how…
The next step after the rules is playing with the rules. I think it was Jim Kacian who was talking about 4 levels of understanding haiku.
So I’m very glad for your post this time as I find us coming closer and closer together … I’m watching to see if our paths cross!
Bill Evans is one of my all-time favorite musicians. I find the atmosphere of his music to be akin, in a vague way, to that of my favorite haiku. (The same thing holds for the music of, e.g., Delius, Debussy, and Mompou.) Here are some thoughts from the liner notes to an Evans CD I just want to throw out there:
“…jazz aficionados in particular, seem to have an irrepressible urge to pigeonhole their favorites into neat little category packages. And thus such and such is jazz, such and such is not. We all know the purist to whom anything after 1925 is no longer jazz…. It just so happens, however, that creative musicians since the beginning of music–not to speak only of jazz–have never concerned themselves too much about what their product would be called or whether it would fit certain established categories.
“The truly creative artist has always–to the extent of his talents and artistic sincerity–followed the demands of his creative personality, and it has been the job of the historian and theoretician to explain and categorize artistic events after they occurred…..
“As a matter of fact, the entire history of the arts was, and still is, precipitated by precisely those glorious moments in which the innovator of genius defies the established patterns and rules, thereby opening up new vistas for him and others to develop until the next big breakthrough occurs.”
The notes are by Gunther Schuller, the famous composer, French horn virtuoso, band leader, critic, and music historian whose life’s work straddles the divide between the classical and jazz genres (what he calls the “Third Stream”). The notes are from the CD “Bill Evans and Orchestra, Conducted by Gunther Schuller & George Russell, Brandeis Jazz Festival” (1957). Just some food for thought.
I can’t resist adding my Bill Evans ku (haiku? senryu? does it matter? perhaps it will conveniently help illustrate the point):
city lights
the pianist bows
lower to the keys
(South by Southeast 16.1, 2009; click on my name for an image of Evans playing)
I think it is crucial for students to learn haiku/senryu/renku traditions. Also hokku, and waka. We need to learn the concept of the cutting word and the concept of a cut without one. We need to understand season words, and the proper use of them. Our haiku should be able to comment intelligently on the long history of haiku and hokku. If not, why call a poem a haiku? All of the above continue to be crucial to me.
Having said that, if season is best expressed without a season word, that will be my choice. If I fail to express season at all, then I will risk writing a haiku-like poem. If I write a haiku/senryu hybrid I won’t kill it if I think it works. I can’t take the arguments about syllable counts seriously. English is too different from Japanese to allow for a good approximation. And if that’s true, why write in three lines rather than any other combination? Am I helping to undermine a noble tradition? I don’t think so. I hope not. To the purists out there, I wouldn’t worry; if you are right, the rest of us will be forgotten in time. I do care about the haiku spirit. I’m not sure I can define it, but I care about it.
If your remarks, Mr. Harris, were prompted by what I posted, I just want to clarify that I of course agree with all of the following:
“I think it is crucial for students to learn haiku/senryu/renku traditions…. We need to learn the concept of the cutting word and the concept of a cut without one. We need to understand season words…. Our haiku should be able to comment intelligently on the long history of haiku….”
In order to be a good artist in any field one obviously needs to immerse oneself as deeply as possible in the history, technique, and traditions of that art. The point I was making (or Schuller rather) wasn’t about beginners, though, but about advanced practitioners. The point is that creative artists needn’t be limited to what has already been done, esp. not if they want to write the next chapter of their art.
And none of that is to say artists won’t find great strength in pursuing traditional continuities either. Sometimes a major “conservative” figure follows more “radical” ones: Brahms after Liszt and Wagner; Wyeth after modernism; Marsalis after free jazz; etc.
Thank you, Mr. Burns. We must have posted nearly at the same time. I wasn’t responding to what you said. I’m a fan of both men you mentioned. Both trendsetters who knew their traditions well. I saw Schuller conduct a few of his compositions last year. Awesome.
“I do care about the haiku spirit.
I’m not sure I can define it, but I care about it.
Mark Harris ”
Dear Mark,
quote
1. Haikai no makoto (sincerity of haiku)
A haiku poet needs to feel inspiration from the varied emotions and impressions inspired by nature via looking and listening. It is the haiku true mind. Without sincerity, there is no haiku spirit. And without the spirit, a haiku is not a haiku.
The changing of heaven and earth is the heart of the nature spirit in haiku.
more is here
http://www.nexyzbb.ne.jp/~t4katou/z1kihon.html
I find the HAIKU SPIRIT another item of the English Language haiku theory that is hard to put an objective finger on.
Gabi
Hi Gabi,
Judging from the quotes you provide, it is also true that haikai no makota is an item of Japanese language haiku that is hard to put an objective finger on.
It is a sensiblity we find and respond to in the body of haiku (and hokku) produced over the years. Can we define it? Should we define it? Perhaps it is better left undefined.
Sorry, I meant to write Japanese language haiku theory (echoing you).