Comments on: 3rd Sailing http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2009/08/05/3rd-sailing/ Mon, 06 Feb 2012 14:47:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Merrill Ann Gonzales http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2009/08/05/3rd-sailing/comment-page-8/#comment-716 Merrill Ann Gonzales Mon, 17 Aug 2009 02:14:08 +0000 http://thehaikufoundation.org/?p=3891#comment-716 Hi, All, Thanks for the feedback. I guess the thing that got me asking it is I understand that a kigo is a word that gives you an image of a certain change.. and I just was writing a haiku that used the image of "Woodstock" in it. What puzzled me was, is it just the change of the seasons or is it any word that holds the image of change. When I used that word I was hoping that whoever would read it would come away with the full understanding that I meant the culmination of a whole change in the spirit of a nation. I am so thankful for the input here. It helps me to get to the bottom of so many questions that keep coming up for me. Merrill Hi, All, Thanks for the feedback. I guess the thing that got me asking it is I understand that a kigo is a word that gives you an image of a certain change.. and I just was writing a haiku that used the image of
“Woodstock” in it. What puzzled me was, is it just the change of the seasons or is it any word that holds the image of change. When I used that word I was hoping that whoever would read it would come away with the full understanding that I meant the culmination of a whole change in the spirit of a nation.
I am so thankful for the input here. It helps me to get to the bottom of so many questions that keep coming up for me.
Merrill

]]> By: Gabi Greve Japan http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2009/08/05/3rd-sailing/comment-page-8/#comment-715 Gabi Greve Japan Mon, 17 Aug 2009 01:55:31 +0000 http://thehaikufoundation.org/?p=3891#comment-715 Well, Merrill and all, the World Kigo Database states the following: You should not use Japanese kigo that do not fit your cultural background or region. The aim of the World Kigo Database is to help you understand the basics of Japanese kigo to enable you to establish a saijiki of your own region, share the treasures of your own culture ! You will be the cultural ambassador of your area via haiku, open a gate to your regional culture via the introduction of your kigo. Please help create and find new words that carry enough cultural background to be a new kigo for your area! More is here http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2006/12/kigo-use-in-haiku.html I am still hoping for the Great American Kigo Heritage Saijiki to evolve some day ... :o) grin Gabi Well, Merrill and all,
the World Kigo Database states the following:

You should not use Japanese kigo that do not fit your cultural background or region.
The aim of the World Kigo Database is to help you understand the basics of Japanese kigo to enable you to establish a saijiki of your own region, share the treasures of your own culture !

You will be the cultural ambassador of your area via haiku, open a gate to your regional culture via the introduction of your kigo.
Please help create and find new words that carry enough cultural background to be a new kigo for your area!

More is here
http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2006/12/kigo-use-in-haiku.html

I am still hoping for the Great American Kigo Heritage Saijiki to evolve some day … :o ) grin

Gabi

]]> By: Paul MacNeil http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2009/08/05/3rd-sailing/comment-page-8/#comment-714 Paul MacNeil Mon, 17 Aug 2009 01:44:33 +0000 http://thehaikufoundation.org/?p=3891#comment-714 Welll, I'll defend Peter a bit --- I think he "spoke" or rather his dog dictated (ahem!) rather informally. We deal here at THF with mostly impressive haiku. But, even in Japan I expect, and I know here in the West --- a lot of tripe passes for haiku. Some folks grasp at straws to add to a verse ... and seek, book in hand maybe, to "kigofy" a few lines of perhaps interesting words. It is not of direct experience, not personal illumination of some relationship that caused poet to put pen to paper. It is an intellectual exercise. How many editors and my contemporaries can I fool this month? Can I make one up good enough to win a prize? Such pseudo poets do exist. When friends and editors get together (in person or electronically in private) it is a hoot (FUN) to send up some lines and append a common kigo. This IS NOT TO SAY that I do not use these kigo, I do, and other kigo-- sometimes tailored to my own geography and circumstance (which Merrill asked about). Here using a few lines from my own published renku stanzas NOT paired with kigo... Never were intended as part of haiku ... are what we might see as failed haiku attempts in the West, in English. Not that they might not be haiku, not at all ... but that they are: (oooooh, subjectivity alert!) Bad Haiku. I made them up from available parts -- with my own words so as not to embarrass anyone else. For fun, but also illustration: petals down the wedding chapel's center aisle autumn rain illegal immigrants caught with forged papers autumn rain "Another highball here Mr. Bartender." autumn rain kayakers linger in the shadows autumn rain musk oxen repel the wolfpack's relentless attack spring rain undertow at this beach in Zanzibar spring rain indubitably Sherlock shows me the crucial clue spring rain OK, I'm kidding around -- _Mostly_ so. Some folks could study one of these and find meaning, intentional juxtaposition of a kigo yielding depth. Such is the stuff of "desk haiku." A lot of it passes through the haiku system. So does green corn. - Paul MacNeil Welll, I’ll defend Peter a bit — I think he “spoke” or rather his dog dictated (ahem!) rather informally. We deal here at THF with mostly impressive haiku. But, even in Japan I expect, and I know here in the West — a lot of tripe passes for haiku. Some folks grasp at straws to add to a verse … and seek, book in hand maybe, to “kigofy” a few lines of perhaps interesting words.

It is not of direct experience, not personal illumination of some relationship that caused poet to put pen to paper. It is an intellectual exercise. How many editors and my contemporaries can I fool this month? Can I make one up good enough to win a prize? Such pseudo poets do exist.

When friends and editors get together (in person or electronically in private) it is a hoot (FUN) to send up some lines and append a common kigo. This IS NOT TO SAY that I do not use these kigo, I do, and other kigo– sometimes tailored to my own geography and circumstance (which Merrill asked about).

Here using a few lines from my own published renku stanzas NOT paired with kigo… Never were intended as part of haiku … are what we might see as failed haiku attempts in the West, in English. Not that they might not be haiku, not at all … but that they are: (oooooh, subjectivity alert!) Bad Haiku. I made them up from available parts — with my own words so as not to embarrass anyone else.

For fun, but also illustration:

petals down the wedding chapel’s
center aisle
autumn rain

illegal immigrants caught
with forged papers
autumn rain

“Another highball here
Mr. Bartender.”
autumn rain

kayakers linger
in the shadows
autumn rain

musk oxen repel
the wolfpack’s relentless attack
spring rain

undertow at this beach
in Zanzibar
spring rain

indubitably Sherlock
shows me the crucial clue
spring rain

OK, I’m kidding around — _Mostly_ so.

Some folks could study one of these and find meaning, intentional juxtaposition of a kigo yielding depth. Such is the stuff of “desk haiku.” A lot of it passes through the haiku system. So does green corn.
– Paul MacNeil

]]> By: Peter Yovu http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2009/08/05/3rd-sailing/comment-page-8/#comment-713 Peter Yovu Mon, 17 Aug 2009 01:05:43 +0000 http://thehaikufoundation.org/?p=3891#comment-713 Well, okay. Yes, Louis Miero, what you say makes sense, and I'm quite inclined to agree. When the time seems right, I will find a way to say what I mean in a more inviting "field", though I often find that what I find inviting, others do not. Gabi brings up an interesting point. I am indeed curious about how the American, and beyond, haiku community feels about establishing a kigo culture. This has been discussed many times in many places already, but perhaps there is more room for discussion. Anyway, my dog made me say it! Well, okay. Yes, Louis Miero, what you say makes sense, and I’m quite inclined to agree. When the time seems right, I will find a way to say what I mean in a more inviting “field”, though I often find that what I find inviting, others do not.

Gabi brings up an interesting point. I am indeed curious about how the American, and beyond, haiku community feels about establishing a kigo culture. This has been discussed many times in many places already, but perhaps there is more room for discussion.

Anyway, my dog made me say it!

]]> By: Merrill Ann Gonzales http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2009/08/05/3rd-sailing/comment-page-8/#comment-711 Merrill Ann Gonzales Mon, 17 Aug 2009 00:49:36 +0000 http://thehaikufoundation.org/?p=3891#comment-711 Hi, Gabi, What makes a kigo, anyway. I realize that the lists come from the history of Japanese literature, but how would you suggest that say, someone in America create American kigos. While many of the Japanese kigos do resonate in our culture, sometimes things in our own culture resonate even more. Perhaps if I understood the criteria for a kigo, I could better understand how they can be employed more fully here. I enjoy and derive a lot of satisfaction and understanding by becoming familiar with Japanese kigos..but I think each culture has a treasure trove words that can act as kigos. Any thoughts on this? Hi, Gabi, What makes a kigo, anyway. I realize that the lists come from the history of Japanese literature, but how would you suggest that say, someone in America create American kigos. While many of the Japanese kigos do resonate in our culture, sometimes things in our own culture resonate even more. Perhaps if I understood the criteria for a kigo, I could better understand how they can be employed more fully here.
I enjoy and derive a lot of satisfaction and understanding by becoming familiar with Japanese kigos..but I think each culture has a treasure trove words that can act as kigos.
Any thoughts on this?

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