I did not mean to throw down red meat to the pack of degreed Professors of Literature (I know of at least three on this and the previous Headset thread at THF). I chuckle at _that_ image. Smile with me, please. The average merchant of Basho’s acquaintance knew more literature (and such cultural referents as their country’s history) than most college graduates today, at least in the US. I speculate, of course.

Back to Paul Watsky (Headset #2), I also allow that the words that can become cliche are not to be completely dropped. I sometimes teach haiku with the example of a Beethoven Symphony. Usually #5, but last weekend I attended a performance of his #6. They are called “Old Warhorses” — the opening chords of the famous Fifth are in cartoons and commercials and may be the very essence of cliche. When I see it programmed, I might cringe — oh that again. But, and this is the teaching point, it can be revealed afresh. A certain conductor, orchestra may bring it to life and show why it is and has been so popular, and is such effective Art. So too with a rainbow, dew, or frost. Such images are part of the music of haiku. In good employ, they have power.

Chris is so right, it is hard for editors and other frequent readers/students of ELH to get past hackneyed elements. I remember when we published Carolyn’s “so suddenly winter” and several of Gary’s other star haiku, not the one Chris quoted. Fresh they are. I daresay some spider haiku are in the Nest Archive. I am sure there are in dark recesses of my own notebooks.

No, but the issue of overused words and themes is accentuated (to put it mildly) for an editor.

when you say “I continue to find less than useful reference to non-haiku poets and poetry to make points about haiku, although other poetry can often be the cultural context for a haiku (the vertical axis in Shirane’s construct). Homage or obeisance.”

I am prompted to suggest that Shirane’s whole idea of the “vertical axis” encourages a discussion of other forms of poetry and literature that shape the larger history and context of haiku poets writing in any given language and culture. (e.g. Basho’s and Buson’s references to waka and Chinese classics)

Particularly in regards to the overuse of certain words and cliche phrases, I think it is very helpful to consider this larger context.

As Paul W. points out:
“A poet’s unmindful insertion of dark or one of its variants into a haiku can mean trouble, since many readers will be equipped not only with numerous unpredictable literary and other cultural associations, including death, ignorance, and racial stereotypes, but also idiosyncratic emotionally-charged memories of encountering the dark: scary nights in childhood, thrills at the movies, adventure while exploring caves, etc.”

and from Shirane:

“The vertical axis does not always have to be a connection to another poem. It can be what I call cultural memory, a larger body of associations that the larger community can identify with. It could be about a past crisis (such as the Vietnam War or the loss of a leader) that the poet of a community is trying to come to terms with. The key here is the larger frame, the larger body of associations that carries from one generation to the next and that goes beyond the here and now, beyond the so-called haiku moment. The key point is that for the horizontal (contemporary) axis to survive, to transcend time and place, it needs at some point to cross the vertical (historical) axis; the present moment has to engage with the past or with a broader sense of time and community (such as family, national or literary history). ”

Beyond the Haiku Moment: Basho, Buson and Modern Haiku myths; Modern Haiku, XXXI:1 (winter-spring 2000)
http://www.haikupoet.com/definitions/beyond_the_haiku_moment.html

Opening up beyond haiku, and looking at other contemporary voices, like Michael Ondaatje, seems particularly relevant to the discussion at hand.
I, for one, learn from poets working outside of haiku, especially
in gaining insight into the issues Paul W. raises.
For example, I am constantly amazed by Li-Young Lee’s ability to take well worn images and make them his own:

The birds don’t alter space.
They reveal it. The sky
never fills with any
leftover flying. They leave
nothing to trace. It is our own
astonishment collects
in chill air. Be glad.
They equal their due
moment never begging,
and enter ours
without parting day. See
how three birds in a winter tree
make the tree barer. ……..
……
from Praise Them
Li-Young Lee

(hope the line breaks come through)

Or, maybe, I should say that I’m agreeing with you!

I didn’t mean to sound like I was encouraging overuse of “poetic” words, just that there are times when no other word can be used, something you’ve backed up with your example.

Although writers should spurn cliches at every turn, my point there was that they (the phrase, word, whatever) work, hence their overuse.

It’s up to poets to be fresh and lively. That’s what we’re paid for!