11th Sailing

by Scott Metz on May 4, 2010


Sails is a section of troutswirl that is devoted to presenting questions for discussion and debate on the nature and possibilities of haiku. Sails is overseen by Peter Yovu. For an introduction to this section, see Sails.






. . . 11th Sailing . . .

BY Peter Yovu
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Could I Ask You a Question Without Words?


Don’t be fooled: this Sailing is not, as promised, devoted to one-line haiku. We’ll get to that, but for now it seems that poor Viral 6.5 has taken on more than it bargained for, and so we have come in relief.

Can we bring the conversation about image-based and word-based haiku here? This includes the exploration of “the wordless poem”, and fingers with or without jewels. So how best to frame this, to bring it together in a way that picks up what has been scattered elsewhere and take it forward? Maybe we can start with something Michael Dylan Welch said:

“In a haiku, do the words point to the image, or to the author? A “word-based” poem tends to point to the author, I’d say, whereas an “image-based” poem tends to point to the image or experience, with the words becoming as transparent (or “wordless”) as possible”.

Michael will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe he is saying “image-based: good; word-based: bad”, or: “image-based: genuine; word-based: false”. He may have, as you or I may have, a preference, but that’s a different matter. I like that he speaks of tendencies: we can work with that.

So, like those layered acetate sheets that illustrate one portion of the human anatomy at a time, I’ll set down several questions. (And please improve upon any as needed or wished).

First, do you find this distinction between image-based and word-based haiku useful?

Do you have a preference, and why?

Can you give/show us a haiku which for you exemplifies “the wordless poem” as you understand it.

Can you show us a “word-based” haiku which in your opinion “works”, despite the fact or because of the fact that the words point to the author? And, does a “word-based” haiku necessarily point to the author? Can you find one which doesn’t?

There are other questions which come up, but perhaps we have enough here to go on. I do want to encourage you to throw out some haiku for us to chew on. They help anchor the conversation, and this one may prove slippery, because when we are in the neighborhood of the “wordless poem” we tend to bump into paradox at every turn. But that, for many, may prompt the “argument with ourselves” that gives birth to haiku.


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Sails

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{ 152 comments }

Gabi Greve Japan May 13, 2010 at 10:49 pm

“For me, these haiku are consistent with haiku as
“a timeless moment in a moment in time,”
(my phrasing).”

I agree with Adelaide !

Adelaide B. Shaw May 13, 2010 at 10:12 pm

Regardomg Allan’s post of haiku which use phrases such as “all day, all night, all winter,” etc.

The observation the poet makes that something has occured consistently throughout this time period must be made at the end of the time period in question. The observation is made at a particular time, not continously throughout the day or throughout the winter. For me, these haiku are consistent with haiku as “a timeless moment in a moment in time,” (my phrasing).

Adelaide

Kala Ramesh May 13, 2010 at 9:08 pm

Extremely interesting discussion about ‘a wordless poem’

a himalayan eagle
rises from the treetop
a wordless poem

A poem I wrote a year back, never submitted it anywhere, because I felt it was ‘wrong’ to tell . . . :)
This is from an incident when we visited Shimla – high up in the Himalayan mountain range. These eagles are massive birds, most majestic.

Thank you for your time,
_kala

Gabi Greve Japan May 13, 2010 at 8:05 pm

Matsushima ya
aa Matsushima ya
Matsushima ya

attributed to Kyoka-Writer Monk Tahara Bo

http://wkdhaikutopics.blogspot.com/2008/03/matsushima.html

Jack Galmitz May 13, 2010 at 7:34 pm

I see, Gabi. I read the Narrow Road, but didn’t remeber Matsushima ya. Now, I’ve looked it up and this adds allusion and yet another interpretation to your haiku on wordless poem.
For those unacquainted with the story, Basho, faced with the beauty of Matsushima, could not find words for it and so wrote:
Matsushima ya
Matsushima ya
Matsushima ya

and that’s it,folks. no more words.

Jack Galmitz May 13, 2010 at 7:26 pm

Adam, you’re more than a beginner. With such poetic expertise I have no doubt that you will not ever have to contend. You are a natural, a real poet, and I hope to see more and more of your genius as the years go by.
I’m getting old and it would delight me to no end to see you pushing the envelope of haiku till I die. I have that much confidence in you.

Jack Galmitz May 13, 2010 at 7:23 pm

Thank you Gabi for receiving my appreciation of you; it wouldn’t be complete would it unless this had happened.
And, I look very much forward to your arrow shot right to my heart-I know it won’t hurt me.
Jack

Adam Traynor May 13, 2010 at 7:17 pm

Wow! thanks for your praise of my lone(ly) poem, Jack.
I do hope to be able to contend here, without being contentious if possible.

Gabi Greve Japan May 13, 2010 at 7:02 pm

wordless poem ?
yes, a wordless poem
a wordless poem

That was my version, thinking of old Basho and Matsushima ya.

Thanks for your kind comments on my “wordless haiku”, Jack !!

I added some thoughts here
http://happyhaiku.blogspot.com/2000/07/wordless-poem.html

I will shoot an arrow right to your heart later … :o )

.

Chris Patchel May 13, 2010 at 6:25 pm

Allan,
I’m aware of such examples (and have written some myself) but thought I’d wait till someone brought it up. Since these examples are few and far between (what would you estimate, less than 1% of haiku?) I could simply concede it as the exception to the rule, and leave it at that. But I personally see even these examples as present-tense *moments of awareness* recorded no differently then perceptions of shorter moments in time.

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