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In-Depth Discussions => In-Depth Haiku: Free Discussion Area => Topic started by: Anna on October 05, 2016, 10:02:15 PM

Title: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Anna on October 05, 2016, 10:02:15 PM

...so like,  when like, the haiku or any of its three-two-one-four line siblings is lending voice to like a chipmunk, how does the poet make it clear that the speaker is the bird or animal in the haiku that does the talking?

Like for instance, if a frog does some speaking and that happens to be the haiku, or the speaker in the haiku is a frog,  how does the poet show that?


 :-\
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: AlanSummers on October 06, 2016, 03:32:19 AM
Hi Anna,

I would love to see some examples whether published or ones by you in draft process.  I can't recall at the moment reading any haiku that are poems from a non-human perspective.  Issa, for instance, talks from his own viewpoint about insects and other animals.

I guess Aesop and HC Andersen might be starters to see how non-humans are represented?

Canadian Jessica Tremblay is the only one I can think of that explicitly uses frogs to convey messages and haiku:
http://oldpondcomics.com/student.html
http://oldpondcomics.com/fun.html



How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?

...so like,  when like, the haiku or any of its three-two-one-four line siblings is lending voice to like a chipmunk, how does the poet make it clear that the speaker is the bird or animal in the haiku that does the talking?

Like for instance, if a frog does some speaking and that happens to be the haiku, or the speaker in the haiku is a frog,  how does the poet show that?


 :-\
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Anna on October 06, 2016, 10:23:08 AM


Quote
I would love to see some examples whether published or ones by you in draft process.
Thank you for the response.  I do not have any idea how to. However, could it be possible that it is haiga and not haiku that lends itself as the form for the purpose...and what haiga can do, maybe haibun can attempt.

Yes,  the old time tales of Andersen and Aesop could help further the thought.

Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: martin gottlieb cohen on October 09, 2016, 04:27:52 PM
 Sloppy me simpleton that I am has a response if I understand this and please correct me if I don’t…

ape cage
staring at me
an attendant's reflection

or a bit of a stretch…

winter dream
in my fox den
rustling mice


or another deeper stretch...


bubbling krill into the polar light air’s sweetness








Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Anna on November 02, 2016, 09:09:16 PM
Hello Simpleton ...

I just stumbled onto this again.


I like the first one:

ape cage
staring at me
an attendant's reflection




I am curious though:

Why do you need reflection there?

To understand this,  I am the simian, the monkey, I will eventually graduate into the ape ... ;D

so if a monkey
there is the attendant on the other side...
of course the detail of the reflection is more interesting. But it also raises questions as to whether there is a mirror like often there is in research habitats...
or is it a rain water puddle or a moat in an open air zoo to keep the animals free and yet contain them to their place of dwelling...



What do you have to say...Martin Simpleton?

~anna monkey




 
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: martin gottlieb cohen on November 15, 2016, 03:45:15 AM
Sorry, I didn’t answer sooner; my computer was down:

At first, the ape cage is staring at me, possibly from my human point of view, but than it’s a switch, staring at me an attendant’s reflection. It’s an attendant as seen from an ape’s point of view. As for the reflection, I was thinking of when I was at the Bronx zoo in New York and they had a pond near the cage for seals to play in during the summer, but it could be a puddle. I used the reflection albeit in a clumsy way to question who is more hapless or perhaps the operators are exploiting them both.

Up the Revolution

Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Anna on November 19, 2016, 09:44:44 AM
Hello and  thanks for getting back to the thread.

-- so are you suggesting that the switch of speaker happens in the haiku?  Did I get it right?
     
    -- at first the attendant's voice in L1
   
    --  then the speaker is the simian or ape?


interesting.

where does the third line lead us?
The thought of both being exploited is interesting.  A long time ago, there was this girl who was walking a tight rope about 7 feet above ground. I clicked a foto, through the bars of the gate, and lo,  who was behind the gate in the foto -- was a question that arose in my mind when I saw the picture.

I see that you are arriving at the same thought.

One more clockwise anti-whirr and off you go again with your thoughts please

simiann



Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: martin gottlieb cohen on November 21, 2016, 12:49:53 PM
bubbling krill into the polar light air’s sweetness


I use the “bubbling krill” as a hook to bring you into the point of view of a Humpback whale feeding.  Continuing I try to imagine how the Humpback experiences the event through sensory images, but there is no dream room to explore. Haiku is not easy the way I understand it. I am simple, have been struggling for twenty years, and can’t understand it.







Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Jan Benson on November 21, 2016, 05:56:57 PM

Gottlieb Cohen:

I have had that same struggle with understanding haiku as a form.
 In the English language it keeps growing into genre and sub genre, which makes the struggle ever more exhausting.

However, I do believe you have stumbled onto a workable monoku.
I am no expert but I can see playing with it a bit. If you will endure me.

bubbling krill into the polar light air’s sweetness

Perhaps:

bubbling krill into the polar light sweetness

bubbling krill sweet into the polar light air

bubbling krill into the polar light air sweet


though, in these versions there are too many adjectives to delight the master haijin.
The word that seems less necessary as an adjective in your KU seems to me to be "sweet".


Just my thoughts. Choose or lose as you see fit.


Jan in Texas


bubbling krill into the polar light air’s sweetness

I use the “bubbling krill” as a hook to bring you into the point of view of a Humpback whale feeding.  Continuing I try to imagine how the Humpback experiences the event through sensory images, but there is no dream room to explore. Haiku is not easy the way I understand it. I am simple, have been struggling for twenty years, and can’t understand it.

Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: martin gottlieb cohen on November 22, 2016, 11:06:20 PM
Anna, perhaps are distant cousins are not speaking but feeling but then again singing.

Jan, sweetness did bother me. My problem is that I have to refresh my knowledge of the English language the only one I speak and attempt to write. I confused possessive noun and adjective and still I am confused…


 bubbling krill the rush of light

 bubbling krill the pull of the song 

 back into the krill distant song




Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Anna on November 24, 2016, 11:01:07 PM
bubbling krill into the polar light air’s sweetness


I use the “bubbling krill” as a hook to bring you into the point of view of a Humpback whale feeding.  Continuing I try to imagine how the Humpback experiences the event through sensory images, but there is no dream room to explore. Haiku is not easy the way I understand it. I am simple, have been struggling for twenty years, and can’t understand it.


it makes sense. Thank you.  I see how you have used the haiku to express the point of view of the whale without lending it human tendencies...thank you again for that.


Here is a link, do look at it from 1.55 minutes if in a hurry, though I don't mind watching it from the beginning. 
Looking at the video, I realise what - bubbling krill -  looks like.
Yes, if I were a whale, I guess I would think the polar light air's sweetness because of the bubbling krill,  I suppose.

You have given me a new way to think and explore further. Maybe being the simple makes it easier...  for you to write haiku which are really simple and never easy. True, what you say.


simiann

Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: martin gottlieb cohen on November 25, 2016, 04:18:14 AM
Anna, I still am lost in the thought of no Ma in my attempts. To be more exact, I cannot understand Ma in contemporary master haiku poems. In other words, after twenty years of fiddling with haiku I still do not understand Ma.

There is a thorough description of it in Robert D. Wilson’s Back to Hokku: A Study of Japanese Aesthetics Relative to Haiku - Study of Japanese Aesthetics: Part I, The Importance of Ma, found in the Haiku Foundation’s Digital Library and in Wilson’s book, he mentions Denis M. Garrison’s use of “dreaming room” in further describing the idea of Ma. In my own understanding, it is what the writer does not say in the haiku but, I suppose, infers it in the most general way that allows the reader to bring their own personal experience to it. However do not go by me, I cannot get it!

As a side note to my attempt, I think “bubbling krill” might be a summer Kigo because whales feed during the summer on the Antarctica krill and the poem refers to krill and song to mean whales that do sing when in the feeding process of krill, but I am not sure.

I suppose since there is no common experience of it in our society except most recently through documentaries in film, TV and now video clips on You Tube, that bubbling krill might eventually develop into a Kigo other than among indigenous peoples.  That is another idea, Kigo, I do not really understand.



 

Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: AlanSummers on November 25, 2016, 06:16:23 AM
Hi Martin,

I will be saying more about MA etc... in an interview, but in the meantime I feel outside Japan we can do MA and kigo, but in our own different ways.   After all the planet is as old equally to whatever country is writing haiku. :)

Alan

Anna, I still am lost in the thought of no Ma in my attempts. To be more exact, I cannot understand Ma in contemporary master haiku poems. In other words, after twenty years of fiddling with haiku I still do not understand Ma.

There is a thorough description of it in Robert D. Wilson’s Back to Hokku: A Study of Japanese Aesthetics Relative to Haiku - Study of Japanese Aesthetics: Part I, The Importance of Ma, found in the Haiku Foundation’s Digital Library and in Wilson’s book, he mentions Denis M. Garrison’s use of “dreaming room” in further describing the idea of Ma. In my own understanding, it is what the writer does not say in the haiku but, I suppose, infers it in the most general way that allows the reader to bring their own personal experience to it. However do not go by me, I cannot get it!

As a side note to my attempt, I think “bubbling krill” might be a summer Kigo because whales feed during the summer on the Antarctica krill and the poem refers to krill and song to mean whales that do sing when in the feeding process of krill, but I am not sure.

I suppose since there is no common experience of it in our society except most recently through documentaries in film, TV and now video clips on You Tube, that bubbling krill might eventually develop into a Kigo other than among indigenous peoples.  That is another idea, Kigo, I do not really understand.
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Anna on November 25, 2016, 07:16:38 AM
Quote
There is a thorough description of it in Robert D. Wilson’s Back to Hokku: A Study of Japanese Aesthetics Relative to Haiku - Study of Japanese Aesthetics: Part I, The Importance of Ma, found in the Haiku Foundation’s Digital Library and in Wilson’s book, he mentions Denis M. Garrison’s use of “dreaming room” in further describing the idea of Ma. In my own understanding, it is what the writer does not say in the haiku but, I suppose, infers it in the most general way that allows the reader to bring their own personal experience to it. However do not go by me, I cannot get it!


Let me get to the one in the Haiku Foundation digital library, Martin. I will be back with a response.  I don't know much of noMa but let us see where this collective reading takes us...


Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: martin gottlieb cohen on November 25, 2016, 07:23:51 AM
How ya doin, Mate,

Where can I read, hear, or view your interview, Alan. Will you post the link here? I look forward to it, Thanks!
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Anna on November 25, 2016, 07:51:22 AM
In art... if we were to take one example,  then I would go with Van Gogh and how he included the "ma" into his work.

Pointillism, the technique of using dots/points to create depth was pioneered by Seurat and Signac. There were many many who adopted the technique, to the "T", impressive work and yet, there is the distinct feel that the dots are there to follow the technique but not to really make an aesthetic statement.

Now Van Gogh was already moving away from the traditional styles of the Dutch painters and of course he was experimenting with his brush strokes.
Where does the concept of Ma come in here?

He followed the Pointillists, but he took what was needed, and adapted it to his style.  What we are left with are memorable works,  the earliest being - The Sower - not one of my favourites...but there is a certain elegance in the way he worked from then on, leaving out many details for the viewer to interpret.

I think Matisse too has used the concept of negative space or Ma as we are discussing here to a great advantage. That which is not the  subject is the negative space ...according to the def. What then, is negative space in Matisse's collages?

We are back to where we began, isn't it?  Who is behind the gate, the girl on the tight rope or the person with the camera?
---


Here is another link from the Haiku foundation threads :

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/forum_sm/index.php?topic=2634.0


---


I think it is not just haiku but also poetry and ...with social media being the in thing,  Ma is a thing that is rather ancient and non-happening...











Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Anna on November 25, 2016, 07:51:57 AM
Hi Martin,

I will be saying more about MA etc... in an interview, but in the meantime I feel outside Japan we can do MA and kigo, but in our own different ways.   After all the planet is as old equally to whatever country is writing haiku. :)

Alan



Yes Alan, please share the link
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: AlanSummers on January 06, 2018, 05:22:39 AM
Hi Anna,

I see I didn't get around to sharing the link, which was an interview by Shloka Shankar of Sonic Boom. Here's a blog post which includes the link:
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/negative-space-in-haiku-writing-poetry.html

Hi Martin,

I will be saying more about MA etc... in an interview, but in the meantime I feel outside Japan we can do MA and kigo, but in our own different ways.   After all the planet is as old equally to whatever country is writing haiku. :)

Alan



Yes Alan, please share the link
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: flowerfox on January 07, 2018, 12:06:47 PM
 Hi, Anna, you mentioned 'The Sower' which one?

I particularly like this painting - Arles June 1888, a wonderful movement to it.

The one that struck me when you mentioned this particular painting - the sower- which there are a few.
The Sower - Arles- November 1888 could have the 'ma' element. Here we have a close-up of a sower of seeds, a dark painting, these seeds well depicted in the painting.Is van Gogh representing his own seeds (in the brothels a dark and desolate place) and not producing the one thing he so dearly wanted, a crop of his own making.
A marvellous subject for haiku   
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: AlanSummers on January 07, 2018, 12:24:11 PM
I am guessing this one of the eleven Sowers as it appears close to Pointillism:
https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/en/collection/d0302V1972r

Here are all eleven:
https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/en/search/collection?Q=The%20Sower



Hi, Anna, you mentioned 'The Sower' which one?

I particularly like this painting - Arles June 1888, a wonderful movement to it.

The one that struck me when you mentioned this particular painting - the sower- which there are a few.
The Sower - Arles- November 1888 could have the 'ma' element. Here we have a close-up of a sower of seeds, a dark painting, these seeds well depicted in the painting.Is van Gogh representing his own seeds (in the brothels a dark and desolate place) and not producing the one thing he so dearly wanted, a crop of his own making.
A marvellous subject for haiku
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: flowerfox on January 07, 2018, 11:28:05 PM
Thanks Alan. The one I find most intriguing is the first painting with the second link.

I'm assuming this painting was was done from memory because of the time of year, and wonder is it more of a symbolic panting of his state of mind and an emotion within. Do you think understanding the artist, as much as we can, gives that white space within a painting when viewing?
We all have differing opinions, see things differently, we see this in our workshop threads.
Such fascinating subjects.
 
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Jan Benson on January 07, 2018, 11:57:59 PM
Alan.
Enjoyed the grouping of 11.
Especially this one
https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/en/collection/d0348V1962

Sprite movement of the sower, high sun but a breeze, evident in the grain.
A man glad to do the work, happy in nature.
Sowing his seed in broad daylight, almost dancing in it.
Perhaps he's just left the brothel?

:-)
Jan
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: AlanSummers on January 08, 2018, 06:42:02 AM
re:

Do you think understanding the artist, as much as we can, gives that white space within a painting when viewing?

I write and continue to write about whitespace/negative space. Do we need to know anything about an artist or any other kind of author? I feel both no, and yes. We are coloured by what we think and what we think is coloured by what is out there, mostly incorrect.

The Van Gogh Museum website is a good source, and I enjoyed visiting the actual venue more than once, and the surprise the first time when there was the comparative Van Gogh/Munch exhibition.

white paintings:
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/negative-space-in-haiku-writing-poetry.html

Dr Who and Van Gogh when Science Fiction can become an invaluable tool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubTJI_UphPk

warm regards,
Alan



Thanks Alan. The one I find most intriguing is the first painting with the second link.

I'm assuming this painting was was done from memory because of the time of year, and wonder is it more of a symbolic panting of his state of mind and an emotion within. Do you think understanding the artist, as much as we can, gives that white space within a painting when viewing?
We all have differing opinions, see things differently, we see this in our workshop threads.
Such fascinating subjects.
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku?
Post by: Seaview on February 04, 2018, 01:38:26 PM

Perhaps he's just left the brothel?

:-)

 ;D

Oh, this comment did make me smile, Jan. But it’s my birthday weekend and perhaps I’m being too frivolous!

marion
Title: Re: How to lend voice to the speaker in haiku
Post by: Seaview on February 04, 2018, 04:52:05 PM
re:

Do you think understanding the artist, as much as we can, gives that white space within a painting when viewing?

I write and continue to write about whitespace/negative space. Do we need to know anything about an artist or any other kind of author? I feel both no, and yes. We are coloured by what we think and what we think is coloured by what is out there, mostly incorrect.


I don’t think we have to know everything about an artist before viewing their work because, as you say, Alan, this can influence how we absorb it. However, often it can be interesting and  enriching when I read the accompanying notes in a gallery after viewing a painting.

marion