Author Topic: The Poetics of (Dis)connection  (Read 6052 times)

Beth Vieira

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The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« on: January 26, 2015, 07:22:27 AM »
I was reading a book called The Pursuit of Loneliness: Chinese and Japanese Nature Poetry in Medieval Japan, ca. 1050-1150 and came across an interesting discussion of the waka-related term "soku," which refers to a "distant" or "fragmented" link. I started playing around with the notion that maybe a new kind of haiku could be written that was really soku. In other words, you take the idea of juxtaposition to the extreme limit, just as Richard Gilbert did with "disjunction," and write poems where the link is distant and dissonant rather than close and consonant. Of course the trick would be to have something that held the poem together even so. In linked verse this is not as much an issue, but with a short poem on its own, there would have to be some effort spent making the poem work without becoming a puzzle for the reader.

There are examples of recent haiku that seem to use disjunction, but people have not connected it to soku as far as I know. For instance, Peter Yovu has a poem in Roadrunner that goes

the cold of a question
stars of eight legs
dangle

I'm not sure if it's the best example to start with, but it does serve the purpose of showing that the juxtaposition truly is just that, two separate things placed in relation. The poem doesn't break apart under the pressure of such a distant link; it is made all the more eerie. The poem uses metaphor liberally to help the overall effect, with the words "cold" and "stars" as sort of mini-disjunctions.

I wonder when people decide about juxtapositions, what the general thought process is and if the idea of a distant link ever comes to mind.

AlanSummers

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2015, 12:02:49 PM »
Hi Beth,
I was reading a book called The Pursuit of Loneliness: Chinese and Japanese Nature Poetry in Medieval Japan, ca. 1050-1150 and came across an interesting discussion of the waka-related term "soku," which refers to a "distant" or "fragmented" link. I started playing around with the notion that maybe a new kind of haiku could be written that was really soku. In other words, you take the idea of juxtaposition to the extreme limit, just as Richard Gilbert did with "disjunction," and write poems where the link is distant and dissonant rather than close and consonant. Of course the trick would be to have something that held the poem together even so. In linked verse this is not as much an issue, but with a short poem on its own, there would have to be some effort spent making the poem work without becoming a puzzle for the reader.

There are examples of recent haiku that seem to use disjunction, but people have not connected it to soku as far as I know. For instance, Peter Yovu has a poem in Roadrunner that goes

the cold of a question
stars of eight legs
dangle

I'm not sure if it's the best example to start with, but it does serve the purpose of showing that the juxtaposition truly is just that, two separate things placed in relation. The poem doesn't break apart under the pressure of such a distant link; it is made all the more eerie. The poem uses metaphor liberally to help the overall effect, with the words "cold" and "stars" as sort of mini-disjunctions.

I wonder when people decide about juxtapositions, what the general thought process is and if the idea of a distant link ever comes to mind.

It's fantastic to see you back, I've greatly missed your presence.

Indeed Richard Gilbert inspired me to go for more extreme or distant juxtaposition, and I composed a number of them one year, some of them appearing in my collection Does Fish-God Know (YTBN Press 2012).

More recent ones might be:


childbirth
the bones of fairies
reside in me

Alan Summers
September 2014  issue of Scope (FAWQ) Climbing Mount Fuji Slowly



fleeting clouds
my jagged man wears
an albatross

fliehende Wolken
mein Zackenmann trägt
einen Albatross

haiku by Alan Summers
German version by Ralph Broker
VerSuch ... das projekt gendai haiku 01.07.2014 Wartende wir



Forgotten rain
the wedding ring left
in a doll’s house

Alan Summers
Asahi Shimbun (Japan 2014)



epidermal tongues-
she scales my 200 bones
on a banana leaf   

Alan Summers
Pulse—voices from the heart of medicine 2014


Although lately I've narrowed the juxtaposition between each haiku, and looked again into seasonal references.

But I think it's extremely healthy for people to go for extreme juxtaposition, just for a while, perhaps at least a few months, and then pull back just a little, so everything balances out.  It's a way of shaking not just the cobwebs out, but the near cause and effect process, the factoid even, that the Western version of the Japanese version of the Western technique of sketching from nature aka shasei (in Japan) can be, if we are not careful.

Vive la difference!

Don Baird

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2015, 12:55:15 PM »
"But I think it's extremely healthy for people to go for extreme juxtaposition, just for a while, perhaps at least a few months, and then pull back just a little, so everything balances out.  It's a way of shaking not just the cobwebs out, but the near cause and effect process, the factoid even, that the Western version of the Japanese version of the Western technique of sketching from nature aka shasei (in Japan) can be, if we are not careful." Alan Summers

I agree with you, Alan. Stretching disjunction to the near absurd does help one hone personal skills of juxtaposition used in more connective haiku. It opens the mind to greater possibilities but one should be careful they don't end up writing simple nonsense while playing word games that, in the end, are not haiku and most likely not poetry.

Interesting subject.
I write haiku because they're there ...

through
the hole of a cheerio,
spring!

whitedove

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2015, 06:43:21 PM »
Thanks Beth for introducing this topic.  I very much like haiku that give the reader a chance to make an intuitive leap.  Juxtaposition is one technique that I like and use a lot.  I have noticed though that when I really go out on a limb, my poetry is fresher and gets attention from editors I admire.  Lee Gurga and Scott Metz recently approached me about using this haiku in their new book Haiku 2015.  As you can see, the poem starts out as a traditional nature haiku, but then bends toward the surreal.  I'm wondering if this might be the technique you're talking about.

budding pear...
a dream slips
from its chrysalis

I think what attracts me the most, no matter what technique is employed is the flash of insight that occurs within the reader as they resolve the distance between the parts of the poem.  I think the technique you mention will be most useful for bringing a reader to a place of intuitive intelligence.

I agree with Don, though that there has to be a glue to hold the poem together so that it doesn't deconstruct completely and result in a rather nonsensical flight of ideas.  It can be a fine line to travel, but I think the new paths are worth exploring.  Rebecca Drouilhet

Jan Benson

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 11:49:25 PM »
Thanks,
Beth
Don
Alan
Rebecca:

for this thread.
Wish more poets would have participated in this discussion, offering more diversity of efforts and success stories in making the transition to disjunctive juxtaposition.

Jan Benson
---1st Prize_The Italian Matsuo Basho Award 2016 (Int'l Foreign Language)
---A Pushcart Nominated Poet, (haiku "adobe walls").
---"The poet is accessible, the poet is for everyone." Maya Angelou

AlanSummers

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2016, 05:32:59 AM »
Thanks Jan!

Beth Veira has been a fantastic contributor in the past and I hope she revisits us.

In the meantime here is a piece barely two days old that came out of a Facebook discussion about what is haiku, should it shasei from Shiki (which Richard Gilbert and myself mentioned Kyoshi) or Basho's approaches etc...  Shiki vs Kyoshi would be a fascinating topic for a later time though.

Haiku in English – A General Guide to Genre Distinction
by Richard Gilbert,
30th January 2016
http://livinghaikuanthology.com/submission/genre-distinction.html


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Jan Benson

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2016, 10:53:37 PM »
Alan,
---Thanks for your return to this thread, and the topic of disjunction.

---I will take a look at the link a bit later, as I am leaning (hard) into disjunctive juxtaposition.

---There are strong pockets of resistence in America, dropping hints to avoid disjunctive juxtaposition and it's expression and growth posses a threat to ELH.

---This thread, Don, Rebecca and yourself, make reasonable arguments for the greater artform of haiku using disjunction.

---While I was unaware of the (developing) techniques and application of it, I have long wanted to break free of age-worn kigo explorations; tea ceremony, lotus, cherry blossoms, (as well as aiming for fresh juxtaposition).

---I'm American and can't run too far from that fact, though I am more global than many. To write vignettes that reflect this hemisphere, culture, experience in the post modernist art movement and beyond is my dream.

---Just as an aside, I've been paging through "Nest Feathers" ( first 15 years of Heron's Nest, Selected Haiku) as a historic document of recent haiku record. Compared to what I have learned here at THF and this thread, it is odd to see that the only clear representation of disjunctive juxtaposition was not chosen until page 145 (2012) of the book/anthology; Robert Epstein (octopus).

---I am a bit humbled by the insistence of the vanguard to steadily move forward in the face of subtle and overt resistance.

---Glad this forum exists and recognize the labor of dedication it must take to press on.

Jan Benson
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 11:00:23 PM by Jan in Texas »
---1st Prize_The Italian Matsuo Basho Award 2016 (Int'l Foreign Language)
---A Pushcart Nominated Poet, (haiku "adobe walls").
---"The poet is accessible, the poet is for everyone." Maya Angelou

AlanSummers

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2016, 06:32:50 AM »
Hi Jan,

Always resistance from some alas.   Haiku was always modern, it developed in the 1890s as a counter to the wave of Western Free Verse poetry.  Shiki, who took an old rarely used word 'haiku' used it to announce this new poem.  So in many ways it's too new even in Japan to have a fixed tradition other than its similarities to hokku which is oddly traditionally written in one line, oddly that is, as that tradition isn't recognised in the West. :)

I think there is a lot of confusion over haiku partly due to hokku being seen as the same thing, and partly as more and more academics decided to call Basho's hokku and other haikai verse as haiku.  That doesn't help at all.

Haiku is magically free of dictats but there will be those who will enforce their will on others, and some choose haiku to do this. ;-)

The kigo aspect is annoying because Japan centralised their system, so it reflected Kyoto and Edo (Tokyo) so along with the lunar calendar being changed to the solar one, any natural history aspect is skewed.

I have a long term project called The Kigo Lab to bring some freshness to this aspect and make it relevant to everyone.

To write vignettes that reflect this hemisphere, culture, experience in the post modernist art movement and beyond is my dream.

That is exciting!   In fact some of it may become what I will loosely call New Kigo but will use better words for future use, which are simple and grounded local culture words that a good reader from across the other side of the globe will be as excited about as a local Texan interested in their culture and the pre-ceding and succeeding cultures.  Don't worry about having an open mind, we creatives have them, and get browbeaten about it even by some colleagues. ;-)

---Just as an aside, I've been paging through "Nest Feathers" ( first 15 years of Heron's Nest, Selected Haiku) as a historic document of recent haiku record. Compared to what I have learned here at THF and this thread, it is odd to see that the only clear representation of disjunctive juxtaposition was not chosen until page 145 (2012) of the book/anthology; Robert Epstein (octopus).

Ah, yes, love Heron's Nest, it has its specifics.  Then there is Roadrunner and is/let, Otoliths, and Bones!  Proud to be a founding co-editor of Bones Journal. :-)

It's why there is always room for new and more magazines and that's why I become a founding co-editor of Haijinx - humor in haiku, ahead of its time in many ways.  I enjoyed the power of accepting people's work and if it wasn't quite finished, they had a second or third chance to hone the piece.  We didn't want anyone left out. :-)  We were even the first to accept work already posted up on Facebook and Twitter etc...
I'd see something pop up and say hi! Can I have that for haijinx. :-)  Fresh and up to the minute.

I was stepping down from magazines when Steve Hodge nailed me as an Associate Editor of Prune Juice.  My remit is to look at senryu etc... outside his area of expertise.  So again I have the power to accept work that might not be seen as the norm.

Haiku is radical!  People died writing haiku because the government and corporate companies didn't like what they read.  That was mostly World War Two, and a certain European country years later, but so far this century we can keep writing, holding my breath. :-)

---I am a bit humbled by the insistence of the vanguard to steadily move forward in the face of subtle and overt resistance.

Ah yes, although The Haiku Wars were in the 1970s, before my time, there was enough haiku wars during the 1990s too.  It was my main reason in becoming a "name" so if I backed up writers who were attacked people started looking sensibly closer to what those new voices were doing, and adding.

There will always be a resistance to everything that is good.  Someone I admired was on a death list because he only spoke about peace.  Go figure.

And yes, THF is fun, invigorating, and safe.   We invisible pixies and elves keep sprinkling fairy dust behind the scenes so no spam, virus, or rude voices interrupt the writing of poetry in our own individual ways. ;-)

warmest regards, and deep bow to you too!

Alan


Alan,
---Thanks for your return to this thread, and the topic of disjunction.

---I will take a look at the link a bit later, as I am leaning (hard) into disjunctive juxtaposition.

---There are strong pockets of resistence in America, dropping hints to avoid disjunctive juxtaposition and it's expression and growth posses a threat to ELH.

---This thread, Don, Rebecca and yourself, make reasonable arguments for the greater artform of haiku using disjunction.

---While I was unaware of the (developing) techniques and application of it, I have long wanted to break free of age-worn kigo explorations; tea ceremony, lotus, cherry blossoms, (as well as aiming for fresh juxtaposition).

---I'm American and can't run too far from that fact, though I am more global than many. To write vignettes that reflect this hemisphere, culture, experience in the post modernist art movement and beyond is my dream.

---Just as an aside, I've been paging through "Nest Feathers" ( first 15 years of Heron's Nest, Selected Haiku) as a historic document of recent haiku record. Compared to what I have learned here at THF and this thread, it is odd to see that the only clear representation of disjunctive juxtaposition was not chosen until page 145 (2012) of the book/anthology; Robert Epstein (octopus).

---I am a bit humbled by the insistence of the vanguard to steadily move forward in the face of subtle and overt resistance.

---Glad this forum exists and recognize the labor of dedication it must take to press on.

Jan Benson

AlanSummers

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2016, 08:38:29 AM »
Thanks to Jan, I find the old link doesn't work, so here is the new link:

Haiku in English – A General Guide to Genre Distinction
by Richard Gilbert,
30th January 2016
http://livinghaikuanthology.com/lha/defining-haiku/2867-haiku-in-english-–-a-general-guide-to-genre-distinction.html

Thanks Jan!

Beth Veira has been a fantastic contributor in the past and I hope she revisits us.

In the meantime here is a piece barely two days old that came out of a Facebook discussion about what is haiku, should it shasei from Shiki (which Richard Gilbert and myself mentioned Kyoshi) or Basho's approaches etc...  Shiki vs Kyoshi would be a fascinating topic for a later time though.

Haiku in English – A General Guide to Genre Distinction
by Richard Gilbert,
30th January 2016
http://livinghaikuanthology.com/submission/genre-distinction.html


.

Larry Bole

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2016, 08:45:22 PM »
I agree with those who have pointed out the risks inherent in disjunction, let alone 'extreme' disjunction. But then I'm not a big fan of disjunction in mainstream poetry either. I would add to the list of risks, the risk of artificiality. I know there are people who will find artificiality to be a desirable aesthetic stance, but I'm not one of them.

So if there is a distinction to be made between an English-language 'haiku' and an English-language 'short poem', then I think that artificiality is more lethal to an English-language 'haiku' than it even is to an English-language 'short poem'.

I would also like to offer an opinion about the assertion suggesting that Shiki made what amounts to a distinct break from 'traditional' Japanese haiku. I don't read Japanese, so I only know what I've read that's been translated from Japanese, or has been written by people who can read or who have read Japanese source material regarding the traditions of Japanese haiku. It's my understanding that Shiki modernized haiku in many ways, but that doesn't mean a complete break from tradition by any means. I also think, from what I've read, that 'shasei' is a more complex and nuanced concept than many English-language haikuists give it credit for being. One way of thinking of 'shasei' is comparing it to the French Impressionists use of 'en plein air' painting, which took painting out of the studio. Shiki wanted to take haiku out of the 'studio', where it had become stuck. Some of the better haiku poets in previous times had been very peripatetic; the haiku poets immediately preceding Shiki, not so much, at least as I understand the situation.

All artists strive to be 'new' and 'original', but it's not as easy as being disjunctive would make it seem to be.

AlanSummers

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2016, 02:22:28 AM »
Hi Larry,

Wonderful to see you post about this!

I agree with those who have pointed out the risks inherent in disjunction, let alone 'extreme' disjunction. But then I'm not a big fan of disjunction in mainstream poetry either. I would add to the list of risks, the risk of artificiality. I know there are people who will find artificiality to be a desirable aesthetic stance, but I'm not one of them.

So if there is a distinction to be made between an English-language 'haiku' and an English-language 'short poem', then I think that artificiality is more lethal to an English-language 'haiku' than it even is to an English-language 'short poem'.

I would also like to offer an opinion about the assertion suggesting that Shiki made what amounts to a distinct break from 'traditional' Japanese haiku. I don't read Japanese, so I only know what I've read that's been translated from Japanese, or has been written by people who can read or who have read Japanese source material regarding the traditions of Japanese haiku. It's my understanding that Shiki modernized haiku in many ways, but that doesn't mean a complete break from tradition by any means. I also think, from what I've read, that 'shasei' is a more complex and nuanced concept than many English-language haikuists give it credit for being. One way of thinking of 'shasei' is comparing it to the French Impressionists use of 'en plein air' painting, which took painting out of the studio. Shiki wanted to take haiku out of the 'studio', where it had become stuck. Some of the better haiku poets in previous times had been very peripatetic; the haiku poets immediately preceding Shiki, not so much, at least as I understand the situation.

All artists strive to be 'new' and 'original', but it's not as easy as being disjunctive would make it seem to be.

There is certainly a skill to disjunction and viewing first hand some great surreal images at Tate Modern on a number of occasions, it is not as easy as it looks.

Couldn't agree more regarding shasei as Shiki had stages in this to get people writing deeper and yet we often get stuck in his beginner stage.  This is partly the fault of Kyoshi alas. 

There will always be a need for experimentation so that haiku does not become flat and merely a description in very safe monotonous writing.  Poetry should excite and make us see the world for more than we are mesmerised into seeing by government and corporate entities. 

Poetry, including haiku, should unmesmerise us, remove our shackles.

Alan

Jan Benson

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2016, 01:13:42 AM »

Alan:
Your discourse often amazes me. And I am not disappointed with your response to Larry's challenge regarding the validity of disjunction in haiku.

Stayed right with you until this last sentence.

"Poetry, including haiku, should unmesmerise us, remove our shackles."

My brain is not sorting this well, probably due to a double negative in the sentence structure. But who knows, tomorrow, I may figure it out...

I'm guessing the "unmesmerise" part is the part where the truth of haiku belays any romantic poetics that are usual in poetry.
Removing our shackles, in relation to disjunction?
Well, I'm guessing it means the lack of white space has had us in a trough? A pattern of writing?

Anyway, I've been back here a couple times trying to wrap my punkin' head around your exit from the dialogue.

Jan In Texas
---1st Prize_The Italian Matsuo Basho Award 2016 (Int'l Foreign Language)
---A Pushcart Nominated Poet, (haiku "adobe walls").
---"The poet is accessible, the poet is for everyone." Maya Angelou

AlanSummers

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2016, 02:25:32 AM »
Hi Jan,

If you read that last sentence in conjunction with the previous paragraph it might help.   In the era of information we are mostly fed disinformation, a series of misdirectional information. Poets are only feared when they speak accurately.  Fictive poetry is fine, but experiential haiku may be the last vestiges of any "it happened" writing as newsfeed plays with our mind maps of what is really happening.

We have less idea of what the heck is happening in this age of information than before, and how is that?

The challenge is whether we just get down poetic, or get down dirty.   Do we watch Fox News to know what is going on around the world, shackled to glowing screens, or get out there as a witness, and a writer-witness.   Our choices to stay hypnotised or not.

political election
my application to be
a) human

Haiku News Vol. 2 No. 24: (2013)


the sound dome of bees
how many shades of color
can a human see

Mainichi Best of Haiku 2015


war moon
the flickering of humans
at birdsong

Asahi Shimbun (Japan 2015)

Alan

Lorraine Pester

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2016, 06:19:38 AM »
Alan,

Quote
In the era of information we are mostly fed disinformation, a series of misdirectional information. Poets are only feared when they speak accurately.  Fictive poetry is fine, but experiential haiku may be the last vestiges of any "it happened" writing as newsfeed plays with our mind maps of what is really happening.

Just wanted to stick my 2 cents in.

First thing that came to mind with the above quote was a quote by Diane Arbus: "I really believe there are things nobody would see if I didn't photograph them." I believe that we, as writers could rewrite her quote: I really believe there are things nobody would see if I didn't write about them. A fellow writer once reminded me that our purpose as writers is to observe and record. I myself have written several short poems in which I am the witness.

The second thing that came to mind occurred in a forum where, for one week a month, you could write anything, as a draft. It was an opportunity to play with forms, to try new stuff without being critted mercilessly. Except...it wasn't. I was trying out American Sentences and someone had suggested it would read better if I made a change. The change would have made the observation untrue, and things on the lake simply didn't happen the way my AS would read. I remember making the comment that the AS was based on many observations, at which point, the poster reminded me that it was not the place of the poet to stick to the facts. Better to have something that never would have happened and have it be a pretty story, than to have it be the truth that no one wanted to deal with. Oh well...

Lorraine

AlanSummers

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Re: The Poetics of (Dis)connection
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2016, 06:43:25 AM »
Lorraine,

Gosh, same here but at university.   This urge to spin a story and not stick to facts even if the genre is non-fiction like history books, newsfeed, safety information, in the interests of the nation etc...

There is a willingness to collaborate with all areas that should tell things accurately but it isn't in the best interests of humanity, be it the humble haiku or straight facts about political elections and such, which Britain is riven through with at the moment.

There is a palpable fear of accuracy, and certainly anyone talking about the 'Truth' is attacked, a lot of precedent for that.

So what is there to fear from the occasional haiku being factual and still remain a poem, or your American Sentences invented by Allen Ginsberg who was a political agitator?

There should be an openness as to how we present our accuracy in poetry, and just help, not hinder that.

I'm moving more and more back into actual experience.   It's vital to me, and how I've seen the world over 25 years, and a body of work wins every time for me.

Whether we don't use juxtaposition at all, or it's so negligible it's barely there, or we use disjunctive practices, link and shift or as Beth Vieira started this correspondence, with
Quote
"soku," which refers to a "distant" or "fragmented" link.

shinku (close verse) In renga, a close relationship between two succeeding stanzas. See soku.
soku (distant verse) In renga, a distant relationship between two succeeding stanzas.

or

Soku [Japanese "disparate verse"].
In linked verse, two adjoining stanzas that exhibit a rather distant relationship.
Shinku [Japanese "synchronized verse"].
Two adjoining stanzas (in linked verse) that have a rather close relationship.

Interestingly:
SOKU ZE KU KU SOKU ZE SHIKE JU SO GYO SHIKI YAKU
the emptiness. Emptiness is the form. Sensation, thought, active substance, consciousness
The Prajna Paramita Sutra trans. Snhunryu Suzuki

I don't think governments and various other bodies are comfortable with empty spaces that allow people to think for themselves, after all when democracy was invented Socrates was murdered for believing in it.

Also I don't think we are comfortable with anything that appears asymmetrical and we have to be careful around presenting it.

Alan

Alan,

Quote
In the era of information we are mostly fed disinformation, a series of misdirectional information. Poets are only feared when they speak accurately.  Fictive poetry is fine, but experiential haiku may be the last vestiges of any "it happened" writing as newsfeed plays with our mind maps of what is really happening.

Just wanted to stick my 2 cents in.

First thing that came to mind with the above quote was a quote by Diane Arbus: "I really believe there are things nobody would see if I didn't photograph them." I believe that we, as writers could rewrite her quote: I really believe there are things nobody would see if I didn't write about them. A fellow writer once reminded me that our purpose as writers is to observe and record. I myself have written several short poems in which I am the witness.

The second thing that came to mind occurred in a forum where, for one week a month, you could write anything, as a draft. It was an opportunity to play with forms, to try new stuff without being critted mercilessly. Except...it wasn't. I was trying out American Sentences and someone had suggested it would read better if I made a change. The change would have made the observation untrue, and things on the lake simply didn't happen the way my AS would read. I remember making the comment that the AS was based on many observations, at which point, the poster reminded me that it was not the place of the poet to stick to the facts. Better to have something that never would have happened and have it be a pretty story, than to have it be the truth that no one wanted to deal with. Oh well...

Lorraine

 

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