Author Topic: haiku or something else  (Read 4908 times)

meghalls

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haiku or something else
« on: September 09, 2016, 11:55:57 AM »
Hello,

Looking at today's re:viral, which is      dandelion antsronauts    by Tom Sacramona,
I'm curious how many current editors of haiku magazines would say that they have expanded what
they accept to include short poems which may not be haiku, but which are interesting anyway. I know there is ongoing debate about what is and is not a haiku, but it does seem that there are poems which would be hard to fit into any category except maybe haikuesque or something. I personally think this is a good thing, and besides, where else are these strange little poems going to go?

Meg

AlanSummers

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2016, 01:23:05 PM »
Hi Meg,


dandelion antsronauts

          Tom Sacramona, bottle rockets 18.1 (2016)
http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2016/09/09/revirals-52/

I have no idea if this is an experiential haiku, although as an observer of nature, prepared to sit still for hours, I've witnessed things not always even caught by wildlife documentary makers (my wife is one).

This photo is true but the photographer has created the experience, not let it be entirely natural:
https://nz.pinterest.com/pin/533395149591210655/

Here are natural phenomenons:

Quote
I kept noticing that where there were Dandelions there were ants.

http://benjaminellis.org/2013/05/06/ants-and-dandelions-co-dependance-and-missing-links/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myn5Ept-9vQ

There has been a long trend in poetry and in haiku to accept a word within a word poem:
http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm

LeRoy Gorman is probably the longest and most famous practitioner of these within the haiku canon.

e.g.
http://bonesjournal.com/no1/bones1-final.pdf

And I am a co-founder of Bones Journal. :-)

Yep, we need outliers in haiku to keep us all on our toes.   Although I write a wide vein of haiku from classic hokku, traditional haiku with or without a 5-7-5 count (in English-language syllables) I do feel we need experimental and avant-garde work too.

Although my own collection is perhaps avant-garde to some, it's surprising how many haiku readers and writers from all corners do like the usual work:  http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/does-fish-god-know-haiku-collection-by.html

It is a delightful work isn't it?   It brings a smile, there needs to be lots of smiles in this world at times.

Thank you so much for posting.

warm regards,

Alan

Hello,

Looking at today's re:viral, which is      dandelion antsronauts    by Tom Sacramona,
I'm curious how many current editors of haiku magazines would say that they have expanded what
they accept to include short poems which may not be haiku, but which are interesting anyway. I know there is ongoing debate about what is and is not a haiku, but it does seem that there are poems which would be hard to fit into any category except maybe haikuesque or something. I personally think this is a good thing, and besides, where else are these strange little poems going to go?

Meg

meghalls

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 09:22:22 AM »
I was hoping an editor or two would jump into this. So I'll ask them directly, in hopes one will stop by: have you expanded (or would you expand) what you accept to include short poems which may not be haiku, but which are interesting anyway, and are connected to haiku in some way?

Thanks.

Meg
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 10:43:43 AM by meghalls »

AlanSummers

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 11:10:09 AM »
Dear Meg,

I am an editor. :-)

Do you want an editor from a specific journal?

Both Roadrunner and Bones Journal accept short poems that needn't be attempting to be haiku.

My own collection Does Fish-God Know contains standard and experimental haiku and short poems/micropoems.

Of course as a founding editor of Bones Journal, now Emeritus Editor, myself and the others were interested in good writing, a requirement, and either haiku or something that could take from haiku and yet be its own thing.

re Bones Journal:
http://bonesjournal.com/submission.html

roadrunner:
http://roadrunnerjournal.com/pages_all/archive.htm

is/let:
https://isletpoetry.wordpress.com

otata:
https://otatablog.wordpress.com

warm regards,

Alan


I was hoping an editor or two would jump into this. So I'll ask them directly, in hopes one will stop by: have you expanded (or would you expand) what you accept to include short poems which may not be haiku, but which are interesting anyway, and are connected to haiku in some way?

Thanks.

Meg

AgnesEvaS

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2016, 09:15:11 AM »
https://noonpoetry.com
NOON: journal of the short poem also accepts short poems outside of haiku.

Also, i did not know Roadrunner was still in production. I've been looking at an outdated link this whole time. Thanks for this news!
-Runner Up, 2016 Golden Triangle haiku Contest
-Distinguished Poet, International Matsuo Bashō Award 4th Edition, 2016

meghalls

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2016, 09:20:43 AM »
Alan,

Are you the only person on this forum, apart from itinerants like me?  :)

I see that Bones is a "journal of contemporary haiku" which would lead people to think that whatever
is accepted will be considered haiku. Maybe my question is pointless-- would the editors of Frogpond or
Modern haiku accept poems which they don't consider to be haiku? Doesn't seem so, even if they are fairly liberal in what they do accept. So that leaves Otata or Noon: Journal of the Short Poem and maybe a couple of others whose editors are not constrained. Still, it might be an interesting thing to talk about if some of these editors might chime in. But thank you Alan for talking about this.

Meg

AlanSummers

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2016, 09:54:25 AM »
Hi Agnes,

Roadrunner has ceased alas, that's just archived material.

warm regards,

Alan

https://noonpoetry.com
NOON: journal of the short poem also accepts short poems outside of haiku.

Also, i did not know Roadrunner was still in production. I've been looking at an outdated link this whole time. Thanks for this news!

AlanSummers

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2016, 10:16:42 AM »
Meg,

I tend to be mostly the only one currently who enters into discussions. :)

re:
I see that Bones is a "journal of contemporary haiku" which would lead people to think that whatever
is accepted will be considered haiku.

Different journals give an impression of what the editors perceive to be haiku.  Bones journal was in part a response to the demise of a popular online magazine Notes from the Gean; and also not giving into peer pressure, so there are just a few haiku for every issue.

None of the founding editors, myself (UK), Sheila Windsor (UK) or Johannes Bjerg (Denmark) held any interest in creating yet another haiku magazine of yet a regular approach.   We wanted to give people regardless if they were known or unknown a chance to have their voice, and poetry, published.  Bones is also a voice for those outliers out there who do not bend to a perceived norm in haiku (although many of write in a variety of approaches).

Jim Kacian (USA) recently said this:
Quote
It’s worth saying that as far afield from classical haiku as [this] work might seem to traditionalists, it is still nowhere near as various as that which is to be found in Japanese haiku in the present time. Such perturbations there result, for a host of reasons, in schisms, exclusive schools and personal enmity, whereas here we have a more homogenized approach, with various approaches filtered through a handful of editors into our few collective journals. Such an approach invites ontological process. Perhaps this melding is our gift back to haiku.

Now Kacian writes regular, standard, haiku like so many of us, but also experimental work.   What I will pull out of this is that if you read contemporary Japanese-language haiku it is very different from what non-Japanese people feel is the normal real way to compose them. 

Two of the shortest Japanese-language haiku are here:
http://area17.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/more-than-one-fold-in-paper-kire-kigo.html

So there is precedent of a sort.

Maybe my question is pointless-- would the editors of Frogpond or Modern haiku accept poems which they don't consider to be haiku? Doesn't seem so, even if they are fairly liberal in what they do accept.

Well, those magazines have turned down and accepted both traditional and experimental/free verse haiku.  They are good magazines but obviously more mainstream, which goes back to the fact that Roadrunner was so important as well known and respected general/mainstream poets and commentators would often select haiku for the Scorpion Prize.   Bones journal, as well as Otata and is/let etc... also give voice to those who know how to write standard haiku but wish to push boundaries, a common theme in both art, science and industry.


So that leaves Otata or Noon: Journal of the Short Poem and maybe a couple of others whose editors are not constrained. Still, it might be an interesting thing to talk about if some of these editors might chime in. But thank you Alan for talking about this.

Meg

Ah it would indeed.   Why not approach the founder of The Haiku Foundation (Jim Kacian) as we have had highly successful discussions in the past where editors and long known haiku poets have commented?

QUOTE IN FULL:
Alan,

Are you the only person on this forum, apart from itinerants like me?  :)

I see that Bones is a "journal of contemporary haiku" which would lead people to think that whatever
is accepted will be considered haiku. Maybe my question is pointless-- would the editors of Frogpond or
Modern haiku accept poems which they don't consider to be haiku? Doesn't seem so, even if they are fairly liberal in what they do accept. So that leaves Otata or Noon: Journal of the Short Poem and maybe a couple of others whose editors are not constrained. Still, it might be an interesting thing to talk about if some of these editors might chime in. But thank you Alan for talking about this.

Meg

Anna

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2016, 09:22:44 AM »
Alan brought up Noon Journal. Here is something you should read Meg: http://www.modernhaiku.org/essays/RowlandFromHaikuToShortPoem.html


and when it comes to the strange little ones... I think it is a matter of acceptance, excuse the pun.
Would it not be wonderful if some of the prominent haiku magazines would encourage the strange little ones bu adding just a page, maybe two or three of them in the magazines with a comment by an editor or assistant editor. Editors have fairly attuned haiku minds, even when it comes to the strange critters...

I may be an year old in the haiku world, but I have been reading poetry for long. Haiku is form poetry. The craft skills are to be appreciated. Even, if the composition is deviant art.

So which of the magazines you have mentioned can and will come up with the leap of ...faith in Basho and the present day haijin world? I don't know, but I do hope that the frogs are all happy to land in the...big tub.

That said, now that the monsoon is gone, where the hell do I find a frog? I guess I will ask Basho's ghost.
And I mean no offence to anyone and everyone.

Croak
ann



If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

AlanSummers

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2016, 09:47:50 AM »
Thanks Anna for bringing up that piece from Philip Rowland.  I don't if there was a part two in the making, but five years later he produced:

New Directions in English-language Haiku: An Overview and Assessment
http://iafor.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Article-3-iafor-librasia-journal-volume2-issue2-2-3.pdf

That is a great idea to include an editor's or editors' thought on the more unusual or experimental haiku.

I love this quote from you:
Quote
Haiku is form poetry...the composition is deviant
lifted from:
Haiku is form poetry. The craft skills are to be appreciated. Even, if the composition is deviant art.

I think the fact that people are overly influenced by the pre-haiku art of Basho that they get shocked with current writers, and even immediately post-Shiki writers from Japan and elsewhere stop writing hokku and pre-Industrial/post-Agrarian poetry.

I am also greatly relieved that I am seeing/hearing more artists and poets who cannot or will not explain their art/writings.   Sometimes my stuff comes from some mind zone outside my logical everyday existence and I can barely recognise that I am the originator, especially if it's really good for some unfathomable reason. ;)

And we have to remember that Basho was forever inventing or at least taking a group's idea of something and running with it.   Even on his deathbed he was starting on karumi which he never got to complete or create a particular strategic verse such as he did with frog+pond and branch+crow.

Love this too! :)
That said, now that the monsoon is gone, where the hell do I find a frog? I guess I will ask Basho's ghost.

warm regards,

Alan



Alan brought up Noon Journal. Here is something you should read Meg: http://www.modernhaiku.org/essays/RowlandFromHaikuToShortPoem.html


and when it comes to the strange little ones... I think it is a matter of acceptance, excuse the pun.
Would it not be wonderful if some of the prominent haiku magazines would encourage the strange little ones bu adding just a page, maybe two or three of them in the magazines with a comment by an editor or assistant editor. Editors have fairly attuned haiku minds, even when it comes to the strange critters...

I may be an year old in the haiku world, but I have been reading poetry for long. Haiku is form poetry. The craft skills are to be appreciated. Even, if the composition is deviant art.

So which of the magazines you have mentioned can and will come up with the leap of ...faith in Basho and the present day haijin world? I don't know, but I do hope that the frogs are all happy to land in the...big tub.

That said, now that the monsoon is gone, where the hell do I find a frog? I guess I will ask Basho's ghost.
And I mean no offence to anyone and everyone.

Croak
ann

meghalls

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2016, 11:01:31 AM »
I suppose the "strange little poems" I'm thinking of are not attempting to "push the boundaries of
haiku", advance the cause, bring it into the 21st century or anything like that. They make no claims on haiku, but might be inspired by haiku, I guess. I bet a bunch of things like that have been written with no other place to go than to the haiku mags, because they're very short and maybe have a thing or two in common with haiku.

Anyway, good thing for writers like that that there's now Otata and Noon, which are the "other places" where good, very short poems might be published.

Alan, wouldn't you say that by calling Bones a "journal of contemporary haiku" that it is basically saying
that whatever is published there is  . . . haiku-- maybe experimental, maybe controversial, but haiku nevertheless?

Thanks,

Meg

AlanSummers

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2016, 11:07:32 AM »
I'm an editor emeritus of Bones journal which went through one or descriptions so you would be better contacting the managing editor Johannes Bjerg:  http://bonesjournal.com/submission.html

It's more in line perhaps with the ongoing Japanese haiku experiments that allow things to be tested out and are a success even if they fail. :)

Alan

I suppose the "strange little poems" I'm thinking of are not attempting to "push the boundaries of
haiku", advance the cause, bring it into the 21st century or anything like that. They make no claims on haiku, but might be inspired by haiku, I guess. I bet a bunch of things like that have been written with no other place to go than to the haiku mags, because they're very short and maybe have a thing or two in common with haiku.

Anyway, good thing for writers like that that there's now Otata and Noon, which are the "other places" where good, very short poems might be published.

Alan, wouldn't you say that by calling Bones a "journal of contemporary haiku" that it is basically saying
that whatever is published there is  . . . haiku-- maybe experimental, maybe controversial, but haiku nevertheless?

Thanks,

Meg

Anna

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2016, 12:12:15 PM »
 
Quote
New Directions in English-language Haiku: An Overview and Assessment
http://iafor.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Article-3-iafor-librasia-journal-volume2-issue2-2-3.pdf

Thanks Alan, for the link.

Quote
That is a great idea to include an editor's or editors' thought on the more unusual or experimental haiku.


I hope it materialises.  Rome did not happen immediately...I hope I got that right. But the visual is clear I guess...

Quote
I love this quote from you:
Quote
Haiku is form poetry...the composition is deviant
lifted from:
Quote from: Anna on Today at 09:22:44 AM
Haiku is form poetry. The craft skills are to be appreciated. Even, if the composition is deviant art.

You framed it. But I guess it is, considering that the normative haiku do not celebrate metaphor and is yet such a metaphorical statement ...
and yes contemporary haiku is deviant given: "and are
seen to involve the freer use of metaphor and opaque language than is found in
normative haiku."  From the abstract - New Directions in English-language Haiku: An Overview and Assessment by Philip Rowland

Do excuse my humor,  the essays and papers are serious enough, and this is a discussion.


Hello Meg, thanks for an interesting thread. I do wish more haijin would join the discussion.  Happy Weekend.





If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

meghalls

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2016, 02:50:42 PM »
Is there anything more to be wrung out of this discussion, short of asking editors of Modern Haiku, Frogpond, The Heron's Nest, Acorn, etc, questions like: in order to publish a poem, do you have to feel
personally satisfied that it meets your own criteria for what is a haiku, or are you willing to publish something which not only pushes boundaries, but goes beyond?

And what would be some examples? Is dandelion antsronauts an example of going beyond boundaries?

Meg

 


AlanSummers

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Re: haiku or something else
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2016, 05:07:26 PM »
Hi Meg,

It would be a great idea to email various editors of haiku journals:
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/haikunews/haikupublications#Haiku



Toward an Aesthetic for English-Language Haiku by Lee Gurga
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/323
http://www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/form/haiku/haiku.aesthetics.gurga.htm

Do Something Different by Peter Yovu (March 2009)
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/400


TRUSTING THE COMPASS OF STRANGENESS: PETER YOVU’S SUNRISE
by Paul Pfleuger, Jr.
http://www.roadrunnerjournal.com/pages111/Sunrise_review.pdf


Sunrise by Peter Yovu; book review
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/553
http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/Yovu2010.html

The Haiku Foundation Readings: Peter Yovu - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znJ05U0ngps

Disordering Haiku by Peter Yovu (October 2009)
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/426

Jack Galmitz is a great reviewer and commentator as well as a haiku poet who stretches boundaries further than most in haiku: http://www.gendaihaiku.com/research/galmitz/index.html
http://livinghaikuanthology.com/readings/haiku-readings/2737-jack-galmitz-reads-a-selection-of-his-haiku.html

And of course who can write haiku that are not haiku but they are, aren't they haiku than Marlene Mountain:  http://www.marlenemountain.org/intro.html

Poetry is language beyond conversations we hear in shops, pubs, bars, train and police stations, but then again perhaps some poets pull from the street and call it literature too. :)

If we push boundaries perhaps we are better at keeping within them later on, or never reach the boundary in the first place if we don't push for them?

I think a type of survey amongst editors would be great.  Perhaps use the THF contact message page to put forward a proposal:   http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/contact/

Here's a different way that was used to question these prominent editors:
UNDERSTANDING MODERN ENGLISH-LANGUAGE HAIKU
by Tracy Koretsky
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/node/505



Is there anything more to be wrung out of this discussion, short of asking editors of Modern Haiku, Frogpond, The Heron's Nest, Acorn, etc, questions like: in order to publish a poem, do you have to feel
personally satisfied that it meets your own criteria for what is a haiku, or are you willing to publish something which not only pushes boundaries, but goes beyond?

And what would be some examples? Is dandelion antsronauts an example of going beyond boundaries?

Meg

 

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