Author Topic: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !  (Read 3892 times)

Jennifer Sutherland

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Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« on: December 03, 2016, 08:17:39 AM »
the original -

no way out
Deaths at the door
demanding candy

- Leroy Gorman





Halloween
a witch with dental braces
demanding candy


Mary Hind ( Melbourne Australia)
Mianichi news.japan Dec 1st 2016






Anna

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2016, 11:15:14 PM »
What is this all about ... I read two haiku but have no clue as to what you are saying, Jennifer ...
If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

Jennifer Sutherland

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2016, 11:44:04 PM »
I thought the title of my comment explained the context of the post.

Yes there are two haiku.

The first written by Leroy Gorman and reasonably well known.

The second submitted by Mary Hind has been published recently on Mianichi news.

The subject matter is not only the same but there is a direct repeat of line 3.

Is this déjà-ku or a rip off of Gorman's senryu?

( reference Micheal Dylan Welch's extensive articles on dejaku on Graceguts)





Anna

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2016, 12:09:22 AM »
Sorry Jennifer, but I did not get the title. I did notice the third lines are the same.  But it is a common expression: to demand candy ...

I dunno. Maybe it is just a coincidence...

I never read the popular one or the other one either ...
If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

Anna

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2016, 12:59:16 AM »
One other thing which I would like to insist upon: I think until tried and judged, everyone and everything should be afforded the benefit of doubt.

The thing is, the badge weighs, ... and an open forum may be too strong a place...what do you think?
If indeed deja-ku ...what then?
What would the amends be? Would an amend be possible?

I have to still read the essay and thankyou for the link. (I ran up to my study before lunch because I had to say this...now at least I know I did say what I thought was a honest response. I would not be able to eat in peace otherwise. )





If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

Jennifer Sutherland

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2016, 05:23:22 AM »
Thanks for your response Anna.

I can honestly say that being Australian myself, "demanding candy" is not a common phrase in Australia.

What is referred to as candy in the USA is what we call "lollies" here in Aus.

Should I ever have the misfortune to commit deja-ku, I would hope that some one would bring my attention to it so at the very least I could apologise to the original poet.

There seems to be an increasingly common occurrence in the haiku community and I for one think it's reasonable to raise discussions around this topic and state the names of poets where examples are discovered on this Haiku Foundation forum or any other.

I have had the misfortune of having had someone plagiarise my own haiku ( and have it published) so know how it feels.  Just let's say that if I ever meet that poet, well  he won't forget meeting ...

Anna

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2016, 11:11:15 AM »
When I read, I too come across many many poems that are so similar that it shocks me...not always into silence... I don't know whether that is plagiarism, given that there are only so many natural themes to write about. But then again, there is that particular signature style that one cultivates.

Thank you for your response. It takes courage to say it.

If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

Lorraine Pester

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2016, 12:01:39 PM »
Thanks for your response Anna.

I can honestly say that being Australian myself, "demanding candy" is not a common phrase in Australia.

What is referred to as candy in the USA is what we call "lollies" here in Aus.

Should I ever have the misfortune to commit deja-ku, I would hope that some one would bring my attention to it so at the very least I could apologise to the original poet.

There seems to be an increasingly common occurrence in the haiku community and I for one think it's reasonable to raise discussions around this topic and state the names of poets where examples are discovered on this Haiku Foundation forum or any other.

I have had the misfortune of having had someone plagiarise my own haiku ( and have it published) so know how it feels.  Just let's say that if I ever meet that poet, well  he won't forget meeting ...

Jennifer,

I think it's safe to say that no matter what kind of artist you are, it's a matter of when you have work stolen, not if. And there are the themes that are popular at a particular time. It gives it a feel that everybody's work is about the same thing.

Sorry to hear your was stolen and published. I'm sure you've learned by now how to stay on top of that. I read an article on using other people's work as the basis of your own. The gist was that if (digital art in this case) could be so altered so it was unrecognizable from the original, then copyright was not a problem. Really??

I understand what you are talking about and agree with Anna's response.

Lorraine

sandra

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 06:40:53 PM »
Hi Jennifer,

As you may be aware, the issue of plagiarism is one which interests me.

I wrote this article for Haiku NewZ, published in November 2013: http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/plagiarisminhaiku

To which Michael Dylan Welch composed a response/an extension, published the following month:
http://www.poetrysociety.org.nz/plagiarismbymdw

I recently approached the editor of well-known journal about a haiku that I felt was 'too close' to one I consider to be well known. The editor approached the author (who is 'new to haiku') and received in reply a defence of the new haiku, along the lines of 'it's a well-known and common phrase'.

Which is true. It helped that the author apologised, and claimed no knowledge of the earlier one, which could well be correct.

So there are a lot of grey areas - and there must surely be innocent overlap of content as well as the occasional devious mick-taker. I love and respect the fact that the haiku community is very trusting -  long may it last.

Best wishes,
Sandra

Jennifer Sutherland

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2016, 07:08:11 AM »
Hi Sandra,

Thank you so much for your reply.
I have read your articles on Haiku NZ and visit the website every month to keep up to date with global haiku news.
I have read your articles on the issue of plagiarism and also read Micheal Dylan Welch's response with much interest.

I appreciate that there are grey areas and certainly we share a lot of personal experiences as writers so subject matter will overlap. We also read the same journals and can easily be influenced by other poets work.

The haiku community, in my opinion, is rather unique as it seems to consist within an inner circle that very occasionally overlaps with the larger poetry community worldwide.

I acknowledge that there is a sense of trust amongst most of the community yet at the same time I wonder if sometimes its sometimes taken advantage of by those who are publication hungry, ignorant or simply dishonest?

 I think haiku writers need to be aware of searching for our own unique voice and with every haiku we submit for publication, ask ourselves the question, have I read this before?

Best Regards,

Jennifer




sandra

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2016, 09:59:07 PM »
I think haiku writers need to be aware of searching for our own unique voice and with every haiku we submit for publication, ask ourselves the question, have I read this before?


Very well put Jennifer. I couldn't agree more.


Anna

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2016, 02:22:13 AM »
 I was very much taken by Michael Dylan Welch's  essays on deja-ku and I think a certain amount of - haiku literacy - is essential...for everyone, the key word here being - everyone...

the -ma - in my words,  I know will be understood by the better of the gaijin...






 
If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

Lorraine Pester

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2016, 07:21:03 AM »

I took a MOOC several years ago from the Writing University at the University of Iowa(or something like that) called How Writers Write Poetry (or something like that).

One of the weeks focused on taking a piece or pieces of published writing and scavenging parts to create a new piece of work. This also was similar to text erasing. This was mainly shown to be a way to get the writer out of a rut or get new ideas generated. We were encouraged to incorporate text from multiple authors. It was made clear that we were to give credit where credit was due, even though it was just a practice exercise.

Fast forward to this year where an author was published using this technique and without giving credit. Don't remember who it was, but plagiarism will haunt her forever. Did she take a writing exercise too far? And indeed, who else has done the same, inadvertently encouraged by the teaching community?

Anna

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2016, 10:19:57 PM »
Lorraine,

I think I did it by scavenging parts of my own poems... was it mentioned that they have to be poems of others or did people interpret it their own way?  I certainly did scavenge from my own poems and voila! My poem was workshopped ...

I have with me Robin Behn and Chase Twichell's  The Practice of Poetry even as I type this, I also have Prof Robert Pinsky's  The Singing School and of course Robert Hass' Essential Haiku...

But that is all poetry, and poetry prompts...I don't think I ever did even one of the exercises that Robin Behn's book has in there, by obeying it to the T...it just is a trigger.

So, coming back to haiku and gendai haiku,  and trying to make sense of what I just said here are a few things for us to consider before we sit and go on a Miso suppe surprise adventure and write our own haiku or allied forms:

--- gendai haiku is newer of the poetic forms
--- there is really no specific pattern, or format,  though many prefer to have the noun and adjective in the first line

---despite which we write our own kind of stuff... I would recognise your work even when your name is not mentioned, I think many would know mine ...

---does not mean that I may use the same third line or first line or whatever, though never consciously...

---haiku literacy is necessary, we all need to read and read and read. If someone is imitating the Jane Reichhold horse shadow haiku, damn, but I can spot it as can you. If someone is doing a Kacian,  we all can and do know, and not necessarily Jim only, right

--- I would say that I am with Michael Dylan Welch in this, inform the editor, though God knows, I would like the editor to know before the poem is out in print... and then let the sleeping dogs lie... there is only so much that one can do, and most of it is how one composes  one's own work. I assure you, I have done it once and the answer ensured me that it is one place I don't want to see my work published in. Yes.  We need to know what our principles are and never ever compromise on that front.


--- read all the essays in graceguts  on  Deja ku or ever otherwise

---read read read,  write write write, revise revise revise,  ask for an opinion when we can.

--- and may the Gods favour the honest and the brave. Amen



 
If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

Lorraine Pester

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2016, 08:24:47 AM »
Lorraine,

I think I did it by scavenging parts of my own poems... was it mentioned that they have to be poems of others or did people interpret it their own way?  I certainly did scavenge from my own poems and voila! My poem was workshopped ...

I have with me Robin Behn and Chase Twichell's  The Practice of Poetry even as I type this, I also have Prof Robert Pinsky's  The Singing School and of course Robert Hass' Essential Haiku...

But that is all poetry, and poetry prompts...I don't think I ever did even one of the exercises that Robin Behn's book has in there, by obeying it to the T...it just is a trigger.

So, coming back to haiku and gendai haiku,  and trying to make sense of what I just said here are a few things for us to consider before we sit and go on a Miso suppe surprise adventure and write our own haiku or allied forms:

--- gendai haiku is newer of the poetic forms
--- there is really no specific pattern, or format,  though many prefer to have the noun and adjective in the first line

---despite which we write our own kind of stuff... I would recognise your work even when your name is not mentioned, I think many would know mine ...

---does not mean that I may use the same third line or first line or whatever, though never consciously...

---haiku literacy is necessary, we all need to read and read and read. If someone is imitating the Jane Reichhold horse shadow haiku, damn, but I can spot it as can you. If someone is doing a Kacian,  we all can and do know, and not necessarily Jim only, right

--- I would say that I am with Michael Dylan Welch in this, inform the editor, though God knows, I would like the editor to know before the poem is out in print... and then let the sleeping dogs lie... there is only so much that one can do, and most of it is how one composes  one's own work. I assure you, I have done it once and the answer ensured me that it is one place I don't want to see my work published in. Yes.  We need to know what our principles are and never ever compromise on that front.


--- read all the essays in graceguts  on  Deja ku or ever otherwise

---read read read,  write write write, revise revise revise,  ask for an opinion when we can.

--- and may the Gods favour the honest and the brave. Amen

Anna,
I am referring to a novel that was published fairly recently using this technique.

I canabalize my poems as well.

 

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