Author Topic: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !  (Read 3889 times)

Anna

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2016, 12:41:45 PM »
   aaaaaah,  oh-kaaaay. Now I get it Lorraine. But novels are not the same as haiku, gendai haiku is new and therefore there are fewer chances of missing out an imitation or whatever...tell me do you ever feel that you have read a certain haiku elsewhere...why do you think that happens more often when we read haiku magazines and journals than we do in other forms of poetry?

yeah!  which is why haiku literacy is so very important.
If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

Jennifer Sutherland

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off -moving on to gendai haiku
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2016, 06:54:11 AM »
Hello Lorraine , Anna or anyone else who reads this,

I am by no means an expert in haiku however i know that "gendai" is just a label for so called modern haiku.
in Richard Gilbert's quote in the archives of this site, the following definition has been offered "Gendai haiku means literally 'modern or contemporary haiku' and loosely refers to expansive ideas of the haiku form arising from the 1920's on... etc"

http://www.thehaikufoundation.org/2009/06/20/gendai-haiku/

In all honesty much as I dearly love haiku much of what I read ( and write myself) seems to draw on the past more than the future.

Anna

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2016, 12:30:41 AM »
Hi Jennifer, 


I too draw from the old, but being in this century and this moment and whatever is the current world,  I would call my haiku( when I do have the good luck of finding myself write haiku and not senryu...as my luck dictates and deems fit...) I think what I write is gendai as do so many others.
That itself is a radical statement, one the purists will balk at, maybe, maybe not...

It also leads me to add, that if we were to stick to the old old old tradition, then we would have to convert english into a tonal language, we would all need to understand a culture other than ours better than we understand our own cultures and then we would have to write and be appraised by the legends of haiku... Would Basho pat my head or jump into the old pool on reading my writes...hmmm


Merry Christmas and a Happy creative new year folks... this has been a good thread,  I have asked myself several of the questions and also felt like I was never involved in the happenings in the haiku land, this thread makes me more of a participant. No offences meant, ...my cultural upbringing makes it difficult for me to state things as they are at an individual level, and I have been pretty honest here. So there goes another brownie point for you Jennifer, cheers
If anyone comes, / Turn into frogs, / O cooling melons!

¬Issa

Michael Dylan Welch

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Re: Déjà ku or rip off - you decide !
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2017, 02:07:49 PM »
Just now seeing this thread, and thought I'd comment:

1. LeRoy's poem should say "Death's" (with an apostrophe) of course.

2. I see Mary Hind's poem as an independent creation. They share the "demanding candy" lines, and they both appear at the end, but this seems a common enough term for many people to use. A quick search online led me to this poem by Al Lane at https://altheauthor.wordpress.com/2016/10/31/halloween-haiku/ (it also appears at http://www.haikuniverse.com/halloween-haiku-21st-of-25-by-alistair-lane/):

Dark Halloween night
Ghosts and goblins roam the earth
Demanding candy

I'm sure others could be found without too much trouble.

3. I note that this thread asks if the later poem is a deja-ku OR a rip-off. Well, rip-offs are PART of the spectrum of what I've called deja-ku, so I'm not sure that "or" is accurate. On the other hand, I appreciate the implication that deja-ku can be positive as well as being a negative thing like a rip-off.

4. Jennifer Sutherland says "Should I ever have the misfortune to commit deja-ku." This statement suggests a serious misunderstanding of deja-ku. Deja-ku is not a pejorative. In fact, most kinds of deja-ku are GOOD, such as sharing the same subject (such as season words), homage, allusion, parody, and more. The "bad" kinds of deja-ku are greatly in the minority, and include overt plagiarism, accidental plagiarism (cryptomnesia), and excess similarity (this last one is the thorniest, because it's a subjective thing to define what constitutes "excess" -- and I don't consider the "demanding candy" poems to have excess similarity at all). Haiku succeeds because we as readers often SHARE the same experience that the poem talks about. So, as an extension of that, it's no wonder than many haiku write about similar experiences, and even in similar ways. There's a limit, of course, but until that limit is reached, shared topics and similar expressions should be celebrated -- and that's what I would do with these "demanding candy" poems. By "committing deja-ku," I hope we can assume that Jennifer Sutherland meant just the "bad" kinds of deja-ku, but I hope anyone reading this will NOT treat "deja-ku" as a pejorative term.

5. A comment on this statement, also by Jennifer: "I think haiku writers need to be aware of searching for our own unique voice and with every haiku we submit for publication, ask ourselves the question, have I read this before?" I agree, yes, that we should think about whether our poems, when we submit them for publication, might be too similar to others or not. But I also wouldn't want anyone to be paralyzed by this concern. Which takes me to the start of what Jennifer says here, about "searching for our own unique voice." I don't recommend that at all, nor do I see it as a virtue. Voice is something that HAPPENS to you by being natural with your writing. If you express your own truth, in your own way, your voice will (much of the time) end up being unique. But TRYING to be unique is a sure-fire way of creating inauthenticity and fakeness, if you ask me. In response to the Modernist dictum to "make it new," Jane Hirshfield has countered by saying "Make it yours" -- to be yourself. That's what really matters. Sure, there's a point where what you wrote while being yourself may have already been said, and said similarly, by someone else, and if you don't catch such instances, editors can help, and readers too -- and I too welcome such feedback. But the time to think about this is NOT when one is writing. Anyway, yes, as Anna said, a certain amount of "haiku literacy" is helpful -- to know the literature as best as possible, at least its high points -- but no one person can ever keep up with it all, so we can only do our best.

6. Thanks, all, for the good words on my deja-ku essays on Graceguts.com.

Michael

 

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